020 – Digital Storytelling with Julia Campbell of J Campbell Social Marketing

• Nonprofit Tech for Good
• Beth Kanter

• Website: https://jcsocialmarketing.com/
• Podcast: https://nonprofitnationpodcast.com/

Full Transcript

Spencer Brooks 00:03

Welcome to Health Nonprofit Digital Marketing. We’re a podcast for nonprofit marketing and communications leaders using the internet to reach and engage people with health issues. I’m your host, Spencer Brooks, of Brooks digital, a digital agency for health nonprofits. Today I’m joined by Julia Campbell. Julia teaches nonprofit social media marketing, digital storytelling and online fundraising through the work of her firm, J Campbell Social Marketing. She’s also written Storytelling in a Digital Age, a guide for nonprofits, and she also hosts the Nonprofit Nation Podcast. So Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show. I’d love for you to start by just giving listeners a brief overview of who you are and what you do.

Julia Campbell 00:50

Thank you, Spencer. I’m really happy to be here so I don’t know I started my journey in nonprofits when I started working with the Peace Corps. I worked with NGOs in the US Peace Corps for several years, and then I started as a development director, marketing director, sort of been all of the different things, worn all of the different hats, event coordinator, volunteer coordinator, and about 12 years ago, I set off on my own and currently in my job, I train and coach nonprofits on the best and most effective ways to use digital tools to raise awareness, get more visibility and raise money.

Spencer Brooks 01:33

That’s awesome. And of course, you’ve literally written the book on storytelling in a digital age, and so that’s what we’re here to talk about today. And so clearly, there’s a lot of talk in the nonprofit world right now about storytelling. It seems like everywhere I turn, it’s a hot topic, and for good reason, but I’d like to get your perspective on why you think storytelling has become so popular.

Julia Campbell 01:59

Well, it’s interesting that storytelling is kind of having a moment, because storytelling and the power of narrative really has not changed since humans began to communicate, but right now, in the crowded digital landscape of notifications and just noise and clutter, great storytelling, it really is the best way to not only grab the attention of your supporters, but also get them to actually listen and process what you have to say. So the reason why I think storytelling is becoming so popular is that we have done the billboard thing, we’ve done the click bait thing, we’ve done the banner ads and the intrusive ads, and we’ve realized that just simply grabbing attention is not nearly enough. We have to get people to pay attention and listen, and we also have to get people to process the information that we have. And storytelling really gets to the heart of how humans process information, and that’s really the characteristic that makes it so effective for marketing and fundraising purposes.

Spencer Brooks 03:10

It’s a good perspective. I’m reminded of the attention economy, right where, especially digitally, where we’re just in a battle. And I say we not just nonprofits, but really, anyone who’s using digital channels is battling for attention. And so I can see how using storytelling as not just a hook, but as something to then grab someone’s attention for a longer period of time is especially effective.

Julia Campbell 03:41

Right getting attention. I mean, you could get in the news and get arrested or go streaking down the street or do something really crazy, and that would definitely get you some attention. But is it the right attention? And is it attention from the kind of supporter that you want to cultivate long term? That’s really the question.

Spencer Brooks 04:00

So, one of the things that, you mentioned this in our call that we had before this recording, was you’ve developed building blocks of a captivating story. And I’m interested in hearing a little bit more about these, because I’m sure someone who’s listening says, okay, I’m here to capture attention and retain attention, and that makes sense. But if I’m going to tell a good story, how do I go about doing that? So could you give me some of the building blocks, some of those steps that you use to build a captivating story?

Julia Campbell 04:37

Sure. So, there are five basic building blocks for your nonprofit storytelling, the kind of storytelling that’s going to be compelling and grab your audience. The first block is the hook. So, I studied journalism for years. I am still a journalist at heart. That’s why I actually love podcasting, that’s why I love writing, because journalism is all about the story, but it’s all about the hook. It’s the lead, it’s the first sentence, it’s the headline, it’s what’s going to get someone interested, what’s going to pique their curiosity and get them to read on. So the hook is really why this? Why now? Why do I care? So there has to be some kind of relevancy and timeliness and even urgency to your story. So the first block is the hook that grabs you. The second block is the relatable character. So this is where you introduce the main character of the story, ideally in their own words. So, who’s the main character of your story, even if you need to tell it in the third person, even if you can’t have the story told from the perspective of a client. But show their perspective, show their emotion, show us how they felt, not just what they did. And when I talk about a relatable character. Studies have repeatedly shown that featuring the story of one person or one small group really works better to entice the reader than talking about the 1000s or the millions affected by an issue. Because as humans, our brains want to relate to one person and their universal human struggle. So the second building block is the relatable character. The third building block descriptive details. So it’s not enough for me to just say, Julia was hungry. She went to the food pantry, she got some food, and she went home. That’s not a story. It’s also not very interesting. It’s not going to grab my attention or pique my curiosity or have any of the other details that we need to really grab people and get them interested. But you don’t have to be a professional novelist to draw out these details. Think about the details of the person, the environment, the situation, so little details. How did it smell? How did it feel? What were the sounds? What was going on around them? Details really entice our senses and bring us even deeper into the story, and they increase our ability to believe in the character, and they make the situation seem more real. So if you think about Humans of New York, if any of you follow Humans of New York on Instagram or Humans of New York on Facebook, it’s those details that really bring us in to the story and make it relatable. And that actually goes back to the second building block. But I want you to make a list when you’re telling a story of at least three small yet like vibrant details that you can use that will enhance the story and captivate the reader. Okay, so that’s the third one, descriptive details. Fourth block. This is the problem, the conflict. So there’s a reason that you are telling stories about your nonprofit work and the people you serve. You want to highlight the problem. You want to highlight the issue you’re working on, the issue that the person is experiencing and going through. So in the fourth block of a captivating story, this is where you convince me that this is actually a problem worth caring about, that it’s timely and relevant, that I need to pay attention now. And too often, nonprofits start out here. They start giving me data, statistics, they start telling me numbers and research, but that doesn’t make me passionate about the cause, so don’t just share, for example, statistics about suicide. You know, if you have a story about a suicide hotline or a suicide program, a program for people that have suffered a loss from suicide. Tell us what happens when people who suffer a loss from suicide don’t get treatment. Tell me about the stakes, tell me about the conflict, tell me about the problem, and that’s going to really help me care. And then the fifth block. Okay, so the four blocks are compelling storytelling that’s going to pique my interest, get me to relate to a character, help me understand the problem a little bit more. And then the fifth block, I like to add in a what now? So if you’re telling a story effectively, it’s going to draw me in, it’s going to get me curious and interested, it’s going to encourage empathy, and then you’re going to ask for an action. So what happens next? Why do all the work of getting us all worked up and passionate if you’re not going to tell us how to get involved? So you can ask for a specific action and use language that’s going to inspire someone to act. So, avoid language like, learn more and get involved, that’s vague, that’s confusing. I don’t really know what that means. Use powerful call to action. Words and Phrases like, Join us. Join the movement. Help people like Julia. We can do this together. Let’s work to prevent suicide. Let’s join together and think about how you can invite your supporters to be a part of the solution by asking them to do something small, maybe like sign up to get more stories like this in their inbox, or to watch another video on the topic. So those are really the five building blocks that I go over with my clients.

Spencer Brooks 10:47

Those are great. So I have those five building blocks just to recap, for my own sake here, as well as listeners too. So, for the first ones, the hook. Second one is bringing in a relatable character. Third is descriptive details. Fourth is bringing in the problem, and fifth is answering or asking the question, okay, what can they do now? And so my immediate follow up question to that as you were talking is, this is a great formula, but I also imagine that applying this depends a lot on the medium, because, for example, if you’re writing a print report or an annual report or something like that, then you have the, perhaps, space and luxury to tell a story in one way. But if you’re doing this on Twitter, how do you how do you take these building blocks, this formula, and apply it to social versus email, versus all the different potential channels or mediums? Do you have any advice or thoughts on how to how to take that and maybe apply it to, say, social media, for example?

Julia Campbell 11:58

That’s the key. You can do it, you can do it. So, a lot of the most compelling fundraising calls to action and asks that all of us have seen on social media, they have all the things right? So, the hook might be the picture, the visual, that’s going to grab us, that’s going to get our attention. Then there’s definitely a character, or there’s someone involved. Maybe it’s an animal being rescued. Maybe it’s a situation where a child is going hungry because school is closed. Maybe it’s a situation where someone can’t get access to an after-school program. So that’s the relatable character, those are the stakes, you can add in a descriptive detail. You can do this in two to three sentences and do it in a really compelling way. So what gets nonprofits hung up on this is that they feel like they have to write an eight part series. They have to write the Harry Potter novels, they have to write the Hunger Games. They have to write the Lord of the Rings, right? But you don’t have to do that. You actually can incorporate all of these hooks into a social media post. So, if you look at the posts that work really well for you, that you like, like, take a look at the ads. Maybe you’ve clicked on an ad, you’ve read an ad. Take a look at the other nonprofits in your field or your industry that you follow. I have so many examples. Feel free to email me. I have screenshots and screenshots and screenshots of examples of organizations that actually do this in a really compelling way on social. The key is that you have to edit yourself. You have to, you know, Stephen King calls it kill your darlings. You have to get rid of the jargon, get rid of all of those words and phrases that you want to use, that you love to use, that you think people need to hear, and you have to distill it down into two to three sentences. It’s definitely possible. The other thing that I want to say is that social media, obviously, you’re only going to have maybe two or three sentences. On Instagram, Facebook, you can have longer, there’s longer character counts and email, you can have a much longer story. You have much longer runway to tell a story. On a blog, you have a longer runway. I think the key is to get the story down. Tell it as long as it needs to be, put it in a Google Doc, and then it’s like the gold. You mold it depending on the channel where you’re telling the story. So you hammer it into a ring or a watch or a bracelet or a necklace, maybe you’re telling this story at your 50th Anniversary Gala. Maybe you want to tell a five-minute, six minute story at your Anniversary Gala, but on Facebook, you need to distill it to a 30 second video. So really, understanding the channel, understanding the medium where you’re presenting is absolutely vital. But as long as you have these core elements, you can expand on one or more of them, and then you can actually distill them down depending on the platform that you’re using.

Spencer Brooks 15:12

Wonderful. That’s a great answer. I was curious as well, to get your thoughts on storytelling campaigns. We’ve kind of dissected this individual story, the building blocks of a story, how you might adapt that story to different mediums. But do you have any thoughts or advice on the nonprofit who might want to do a campaign around a particular problem, or maybe they have a larger narrative that they’d like to expose the world to. How would someone listening expand this to a campaign that might go on for a week or a month or longer?

Julia Campbell 15:53

I think that’s a fantastic idea. So, I’ve worked in domestic violence for years. I’ve worked in rape crisis and all of these different organizations where there’s so many myths and misconceptions and stereotypes around the people that are victimized and have been served by the organizations. So we like to tell a wide range of stories, because there’s never going to be one story that’s going to encompass everything that you do, the variety of programs, the depth and breadth of your services and the lived experiences of your clients. That’s just not possible to have one story. So I like to think of storytelling almost as breadcrumbs leading people down the path to where they’re going to understand and hopefully empathize with the problem that you’re solving, or maybe just really get energized and inspired and feel pride around being involved with your organization. So tell a wide variety of stories from different perspectives. Tell staff stories and volunteers and interns, donors, community members, clients. I mean, draw on all of the people that make up your community, that make your work possible. The key here, though, is making these stories relevant to your target audience. So always thinking about your target audience. Don’t create a solution looking for a problem. Don’t create a storytelling campaign because you want to. Is it something that your audience wants? Is it a question that your audience is asking? Is it something that you know is going to help them better understand what you do, better inspire them to make a deeper connection or inform them and grow that know, like and trust factor that is so important. So always think about it from the perspective of your donor. If it’s a fundraising campaign, your volunteers, maybe you’re doing a volunteer drive, your members, if you’re doing a membership campaign, what are the stories that are really going to entice them and energize them? But also you can just share these little mission moments. And Gary Vaynerchuk, who’s a social media expert, he calls it documentation, so he encourages people not to think about social media content creation as creating these perfect, beautiful, scripted, produced videos and moments and everything’s filtered and everything’s wonderful. Think about it as documenting, like if a documentary series was following you around, what would the B roll be? What would the role be that probably wouldn’t be in the documentary, and then what would be in the documentary? You have to think about it both ways. So really, we need to stop overthinking our content creation, our storytelling. We need to really start thinking about it as how can we even just share these little tiny mission moments that all build together on these little breadcrumbs, sort of along the path that get people to the answer that they’re looking for?

Spencer Brooks 19:07

That’s a good perspective. I love the documentary idea, and it partially answers the follow up question that I had, which is, I’m sure what many listeners are thinking, the intensely practical question of, how do I get all these stories? If I need to tell a wide range of stories, I’m busy. Everyone’s busy. So how do we go about collecting all these stories? And I think you did answer that partially by saying, document these little mission moments. But do you have any other advice for collecting those wide ranges of stories?

Julia Campbell 19:44

Yes, so you do have to be intentional, and you really have to start thinking like a journalist. You have to put your journalist hat on, your detective hat, and you always have to have an eye out for what could make a great story. Now, if you have just started at the organization, I’m thinking of when I first started as a development director at an organization in Virginia, and they stuck me in an office away from everyone else. My office was actually in a different building, and I went through boxes. I went through grant reports, I went through annual reports, thank you letters, donor appeals, and I just sort of mined everything for little nuggets or little seeds of stories, people I could talk to, leads I could pursue in my storytelling quest. Then you also really have to bake it into the culture. So it’s not enough, as I realized, I’ve done all of this, I’ve made all the mistakes here. So, you can’t just send an email on Friday that says, Hey everyone. I’m looking for stories from my newsletter. It’s going to go out Monday. No one is going to respond. No one’s going to know what that means, and everyone is busy, like you just said, Spencer, and everyone is putting their heads down and doing their work, and they don’t really know what you’re talking about. So, if you can do a presentation at a staff meeting with examples, and say, this organization’s doing this, I think it’s really cool. I think we could do this, and I think we could do it in an ethical way, and I think we could do it in a way that’s not a heavy lift. I would love to talk to some of you about how this could potentially work, because when people, especially if you’re working with other nonprofit people, they don’t know marketing. Maybe they’re social workers, maybe they’re healthcare workers, maybe they’re teachers, they’re educators. They do not necessarily understand what you mean when you say a story. And when everyone hears story, their brain immediately goes to these long novels that are, you know, 70,000 pages long, and they don’t really understand. They really just mean, let me talk to someone and maybe get a great quote, or get the gist of an experience or a memory that our organization has, you know, has elicited, so giving them as much advice and as many specific questions as possible, and really holding people’s hand in the organization. I think if you’re the Development Director, the Marketing Director, it’s our responsibility to teach people what marketing really is, to teach people what fundraising really is, what effective donor communications entails, and showing them that it’s not as hard as we think. It doesn’t mean we have to spend $20,000 on a video. But this, these are the kinds of examples that I’m looking for. This is exactly what I’m talking about, sharing annual appeals or email appeals that you really like, but creating that culture and getting someone on board in your organization, hopefully, your executive director, your boss, your higher up, your board, and getting them excited about it, because if it’s just you kind of screaming into the void and dragging everyone kicking and screaming, it’s not going to be as effective.

Spencer Brooks 23:15

Right. You actually said something Julia, that I thought was interesting. You mentioned ethical storytelling, and I wanted to follow up on that and actually give you a chance to elaborate that a little bit more. So how do you tell stories ethically?

Julia Campbell 23:35

Exactly. We have to be incredibly aware of the terms and the language that we use, we have to be careful not to tokenize or otherize our clients, the people that we serve, and we have to give people agency over their story. So, what a lot of organizations do, and anyone can just google this, they create a Storyteller’s Bill of Rights, and they review it with the person where they’re collecting the story, even if it’s a third party story, even if it’s you telling someone else’s story. So they have integrity, and they’re given their dignity, and they’re given agency over the story. And we just really need to be cognizant and intentional about the stories that we tell. Is it something that we think this person would be proud to share with their networks if they saw it on Facebook? Is this something that we think this person would be proud and excited to share if they read it in an email? Is this perpetuating stereotypes, myths and misconceptions around this particular population? So I do think that in the past, storytelling was used primarily to pull heartstrings, to manipulate people, and really just to raise money. And everyone thought, oh, it’s for the greater good. We’re raising money for the greater good. It doesn’t really matter how our clients are portrayed. But especially, I mean, I just really believe that in order to be ethical in everything that we’re doing in our communications, we need to examine all different angles. And we just really need to offer people the dignity to either pull out of the story if they decide they don’t want to be in the story, anytime the story, you know, anytime they can take it down off social media, take it down off our blog, take the video down. They have complete control over how their story is told, and there’s all sorts of information, webinars, trainings around how to create an ethical storytelling culture at your organization. So taking training, doing professional development, reading books, reading blog posts and creating that storytellers Bill of Rights is just so, so imperative to make sure that we are we’re doing everything in the right way.

Spencer Brooks 26:12

It’s a good perspective. Thank you for sharing that advice. Julia, I did want to move into the questions that I love to ask every guest that comes on the show, and so my first one is, what’s one thing you’re working on right now that’s just consuming a ton of your brain space? And what takeaways or advice could you share with other listeners who might be encountering that same challenge?

Julia Campbell 26:36

Oh, well, I am planning the nonprofit Social Media Summit. So, if you are planning a virtual event, I completely sympathize with you. This is my very first gigantic virtual event with multiple speakers, multiple moving pieces, all this registration, sponsors. I’ve actually never organized one before I’ve really just participated in them. So, I think my biggest piece of advice is to be incredibly organized and use something like Asana and just make sure your expectations are very clear with everyone up front. So I’m not sure if that’s what you’re looking for. But I do know that I tend to just assume that people understand what I’m saying, or they read the email, or they understand the expectations I have of them. But just to be very clear, especially when you’re managing something like a virtual event where there’s 50,000 different pieces moving that everyone is kind of on the same page and really understands exactly what’s going on. And I’ve realized you can’t ever check in too many times with people. They really appreciate that.

Spencer Brooks 27:53

Exactly, yeah, and it’s exactly what I’m looking for. I know that you’re not the only person who is maybe moving to trying a virtual event for the first time.

Julia Campbell 28:05

Wow. It’s tough.

Spencer Brooks 28:07

Yeah, and learning, or so I’m told, yeah, the need to be way more specific than you ever thought you would have to be. So that’s great. And actually, I think that’s a great resource. And I did also want to ask you, Julia, about other resources that you might recommend, including, I think it was the nonprofit Social Media Summit. If I’m getting that name right, that’s obviously a great resource. Is there anything else that you’d recommend to listeners who want to keep up on news or trends in the nonprofit marketing world?

Julia Campbell 28:39

Yes. So, you have to follow Nonprofit Tech for Good. That’s Heather Mansfield. She’s at nonprofitorgs on Twitter, and it’s Nonprofit Tech for Good.com, I believe it could be nonprofit techforgood.org, but Nonprofit Tech for Good, Google, it. She’s the master. She does a bunch of free webinars, some paid webinars. She really inspired me to start my career in nonprofit social media marketing and digital marketing. She’s the expert. Also to stay on kind of the cutting edge you want to make sure you follow Beth Kanter. So that is Beth Kanter. Oh, it’s bethkanter.org. B, e, t, h, k, a, n, t, e r.org she’s writing a brand new book about artificial intelligence and nonprofits, and she is just such a thought leader around digital technologies, social media, artificial intelligence, cutting edge technologies and how nonprofits can use them. So those are kind of my two go to people.

Spencer Brooks 29:47

Great recommendations. I’ll also make sure to get those in the show notes for folks who want to just click on the link and make sure they’re getting to the right place as well. So, Julie, I wanted to give you a chance as we close out the show today, to give listeners a good way to get in touch with you, if they’d like to learn more about your work.

Julia Campbell 30:10

Sure. Thank you. My website is jcsocialmarketing.com and my podcast, which releases a new episode every Wednesday, is at nonprofitnationpodcast.com but you can also find information on my website.

Spencer Brooks 30:30

Awesome. Well, thank you, Julia, that it wraps up our show today. For listeners, we are a new podcast as well. So, I’m sure, as Julia can attest, to rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else you listen. Yes, that’s a huge help. So, if you’re if you’re a listener, that’s a great next step that you can do to help more people hear this interview and others. This show is also a part of the thought leadership of Brooks Digital. We are a digital agency for health nonprofits, and we specialize in web strategy, design and development. So if you like this podcast, you can also check out our website at Brooks.digital. You can find more of our insights and learn more about our work. But with all that said, Julia, this was such a great interview. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Julia Campbell 31:19

I really appreciated it. This is great, one of my favorite topics. So thanks, Spencer.